• Home
  
  
• Origins of IFBs
  
  
• About Me
  
  
• Whats New?
  
  
• Articles by Topic
  
  
• IFB Church Directory
  
  
• Links
  
  
• Comments
  
  
• Email Me

A Response to John Hartog's "The Inhabitants of the Millennium and the Timing of the Rapture"

by Larry Harriman

This article was recently sent to me by someone for review. Before I did any reviews of other peoples articles I wanted to first present my position on eschatology in clear and concise terms. I have done this in three articles and I encourage you to read these first before reading this review I have done. They are Introduction to Prophetic Schools of thought, Israel and the Church, and A Historic Premillennial Timeline.

I will be reviewing an article written by John Hartog III, Th.D of Faith Baptist Theological Seminary in Ankeny,Iowa. This article was written in two parts, one in the July-August 2001 edition of their journal, and the other in the October 2001 edition. I will be reviewing these articles here together.

The main thesis of Dr. Hartog's articles here is that Posttribulationists have problems with populating the millennium. Posttribulationists such as myself and Pretribulationists agree that their will be a great rebellion against Christ and his rule at the end of the Millennium. We even agree that these will be mortals who rise up against him. The point of contention comes in who these mortals are.

I will not be reviewing every sentence Dr.Hartog says as this is unnecessary. Especially in the fact that we agree on some things there is no point in reviewing these things. I will be reviewing those paragraphs or sections which I believe most clearly demonstrate our differences and then I will give my own response from a Posttribulational perspective.

The full articles by Dr. Hartog can be found at http://www.faith.edu/seminary/pulpits/01-7.htm and http://www.faith.edu/seminary/pulpits/01-10.htm

Who is translated at the Rapture?

While this is not the main point of this paper, this paragraph by Dr. Hartog warrants some comment:

The participants in the rapture
The Apostle Paul told the Corinthian believers that at the rapture of the church "we shall all be changed" (1 Corinthians 15:51). The resurrection of the dead and the transformation (or "translation") of the living at the rapture (15:42) will impact "all" believers. At the rapture, Christ is coming back to "receive" (John 14:3) those who have believed (14:1). Those who will be resurrected at the rapture will be the "dead in Christ" (1 Thessalonians 4:16), and those who will be translated will be the living who "believe that Jesus died and rose again"(4:14).

I agree with Dr. Hartog that "The resurrection of the dead and the transformation (or "translation") of the living at the rapture (15:42) will impact "all" believers.". Another passage which clearly indicates that the rapture will impact all believers is found in Hebrews 11:

Hebrews 11:13 & 39-40(NIV)
"13All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth...
39These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. 40God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect."

There has been an internal debate within Dispensational Pretribulationism almost since its beginnings as to whether Old Testament Saints will be resurrected with New Testament Saints. Dr. Hartog though, reveals his position on who the "all believers" are with his statement that "Those who will be resurrected at the rapture will be the "dead in Christ" (1 Thessalonians 4:16), and those who will be translated will be the living who "believe that Jesus died and rose again"(4:14)".

What he is saying is only those believers who were living at the time of the revealing of the Messiah or afterward will be resurrected at the rapture. Unfortunately for Dr. Hartog and other Pretribulationists, this thinking falls flat on its face when compared with the Scriptures. In Hebrews 11 we are told that the Old Testament saints saw the promises of God including that of the Messiah "from a distance".

The saints in the Old Testament did not understand the concept of the Trinity as we do. While we can look back in the Old Testament and see hints of the Trinity, they did not see this. They only knew that God would rescue them one day. They looked to God as their Savior. Later in the Old Testament more was revealed about a Messiah to come and they knew more. But they were only responsible for what information they were given by God. They were saved by faith through grace the same as we are today. The difference is that we are responsible to call on the name of the Messiah, Jesus Christ as this has been clearly revealed by God.

The Scriptures boldly proclaim in Hebrews 11:40 of Old Testament Saints "that only together with us would they be made perfect." We will be glorified at the same time together - this is the clear teaching of the Scriptures.

Now lets examine one of the most critical points of contention between Posttribulationists like myself and Dr. Hartog:

Limited access into the kingdom
The Bible also teaches that unbelievers will not be allowed to enter the millennial kingdom. Only believers will initially populate the kingdom. Biblical support for this conclusion comes from several passages. After Christ returns to the earth and destroys the armies at Armageddon (Jeremiah 25:30-33; Revelation 19:15, 18), He will convene two judgments and destroy every unbeliever who has survived His tribulation wrath and His victory at Armageddon.

At one judgment, Christ will gather together the house of Israel (Ezekiel 20:39), and He will cause the people to pass under His rod of judgment (20:37). Believers will return from the lands of the diaspora, will enter into the new covenant with Christ, and will be sanctified in the promised land (20:37, 41). Also, Christ "will purge out from among" the house of Israel "the rebels, and them that transgress" (20:37-38). As a result, at least at the beginning of the kingdom, "all the house of Israel" shall "serve" Christ (20:40). Isaiah also anticipated this future time of regathering for Israel (60:8-9) when "all" the people will be "righteous" (60:21). At the other judgment, Christ will judge "all nations," and He will divide them "as sheep from the goats" (Matthew 25:31-33). He will set believers on His right, and they will "inherit the kingdom" (25:34). He will sentence the unbelievers on His left to "everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" (25:41, 46). Every nation and kingdom that does not serve the Lord will "perish" and will be "utterly wasted" (Isaiah 60:12). Every one that survives shall go up to Jerusalem annually to worship the King (Zechariah 14:16).

Therefore, as a result of these two judgments, every unbeliever who survives Christ’s second coming will be eliminated from the earth and will not be granted access into the kingdom. This means that the first generation of millennial inhabitants will all be believers. This also means that the unbelievers of the final millennial generation who participate in the great rebellion must be descendants of the first generation believers.

Dr. Hartog tells us that "Only believers will initially populate the kingdom." His reason for this conclusion is because he believes that Christ, after the battle of Armageddon, "will convene two judgments and destroy every unbeliever who has survived His tribulation wrath and His victory at Armageddon." Lets deal now with his "Biblical support" for these two separate judgments and see if indeed the Scriptures support his position.

Before I get into his evidence, I want to state that I believe there is only one judgment of the righteous and unrighteous. I do not see Scriptural warrant for separating the judgments.

Let me try to summarize why I believe this. I believe like most Historic Premillennialists that the New Testament should interpret the Old Testament. The New Testament is God's final Revelation to man and should be treated as such. The major flaw in the Dispensational Theological system is that it interprets the New Testament with the Old Testament - basically backwards of the way Scripture should be interpreted.

This would be like reading a long novel with lots of twists and surprises. At the beginning, we think things are one way, and then at the end we figure out that things were not as we thought. It would be like taking the conclusion of the novel, and turning it around to meet what we thought from the beginning of the article. This is exactly what Dispensationalists do.

Also there are what I call eschatological "timeline" passages in the Old and New Testaments. Historic Premillennialism is built upon these "timeline" passages. Examples of such passages would be Daniel 9,Matthew 24, and Revelation chapters 19, 20 and 21. There is a major difference between Historic Premillennialists and Dispensationalists at this point.

The Dispensational Premillennialist takes Old Testament Timeline passages and makes New Testament passages fit into them. Historic Premillennialists like myself take final revelation found in New Testament Timeline passages and we fit Old Testament Timeline passages into these.

The Historic Premillennial position is the only prophetic school of thought to interpret Revelation chapters 19,20 and 21 in their most literal, natural sense. All other schools of thought, must take parts of these passages and make them symbolic or explain parts of them away because they conflict with their systems.

So when I see only one judgment shown in Revelation 20 this tells me there is only one. Dispensationalists see many judgments at different points in time, the problem is that none of the passages they use to try and prove this show their position in the grand timeline. I will admit that some seem to, but when we compare them with New Testament "timeline" passages they are not there. So do we inject them in, thus reinterpreting clear New Testament passages with Old Testament passages that are not as clear? The Dispensationalist answer must be yes.

And now we will return to Dr. Hartog's proof passages. Lets first look at Ezekiel chapter 20:

Ezekiel 20:32-43(NIV)
32 "'You say, "We want to be like the nations, like the peoples of the world, who serve wood and stone." But what you have in mind will never happen. 33 As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD , I will rule over you with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm and with outpoured wrath.

34 I will bring you from the nations and gather you from the countries where you have been scattered-with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm and with outpoured wrath. 35 I will bring you into the desert of the nations and there, face to face, I will execute judgment upon you. 36 As I judged your fathers in the desert of the land of Egypt, so I will judge you, declares the Sovereign LORD .

37 I will take note of you as you pass under my rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant. 38 I will purge you of those who revolt and rebel against me. Although I will bring them out of the land where they are living, yet they will not enter the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the LORD .

39 " 'As for you, O house of Israel, this is what the Sovereign LORD says: Go and serve your idols, every one of you! But afterward you will surely listen to me and no longer profane my holy name with your gifts and idols. 40 For on my holy mountain, the high mountain of Israel, declares the Sovereign LORD , there in the land the entire house of Israel will serve me, and there I will accept them. There I will require your offerings and your choice gifts, along with all your holy sacrifices.

41 I will accept you as fragrant incense when I bring you out from the nations and gather you from the countries where you have been scattered, and I will show myself holy among you in the sight of the nations. 42 Then you will know that I am the LORD , when I bring you into the land of Israel, the land I had sworn with uplifted hand to give to your fathers. 43 There you will remember your conduct and all the actions by which you have defiled yourselves, and you will loathe yourselves for all the evil you have done."

This passage in its most literal and natural sense is speaking to the nation of Israel. But could this judgment upon Israel be included in the judgment of Christ spoken of in Matthew 25:

Matthew 25:32-33(NIV)
"31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world."

Isn't Israel included in "All the Nations"? That is why I maintain that all of the descriptions of judgment both in the Old and New Testament are speaking of the one judgment found in Revelation 20. They simply provide us with more detail of this great event.

Now when we understand it in this light, when we read in verse 38 that Christ will "purge you of those who revolt and rebel against me" isn't it speaking of all the ungodly at the end of the Millennial Kingdom just as Revelation 20 says?

While we are looking at Matthew 25 for a moment, lets look at the word "kingdom". "kingdom" here does not have to refer to the millennial kingdom and in light of the clear timeline of Revelation 20 and the judgment this entrance into the "kingdom" refers to the eternal state.

I want to clear up one more thing here on Ezekiel 20 as well as Matthew 25. Dispensationalists often point to verse 31's phrase "When the Son of Man comes in his glory" as evidence that this judgment takes place at the beginning of the millennium and not the end. If this verse were the only verse in the Bible speaking of judgment I might agree. But once again, we have the final revelation and final timeline of John in Revelation 20 that makes no mention of judgment of the nations or even of Israel just before the millennial reign begins.

Also another reason that verse 31 of Matthew 25 does not have to indicate that there is a separate judgment at the beginning of the millennium is found in Old Testament prophecies. Let me illustrate with this passage:

Isaiah 9:6-7(NIV)
"6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the LORD Almighty will accomplish this."

In this famous passage about the coming of Christ, we see his birth being foretold from his first advent and then it skips right into what he would do when he returns in the Second Coming. Many Jews thought because of passages like this that the Messiah to be born would set up his Kingdom then, not seeing other passages like Isaiah 53 that spoke of the suffering he must do first.

Unfortunately, this is the same thing Dispensationalists do with passages like Matthew 25. They take the phrase "When the Son of Man comes in his glory" much like the Jews did with "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given" and assume that what is right after that in the passage is what will happen in time order. But the passages of Matthew 25 and Isaiah 9 are not "timeline" passages. They are detail passages. One gives us more details of who Christ will be in the millennial kingdom(Isaiah 9). The other gives us some more detail about the final judgement(Matthew 25).

Nowhere in Ezekiel 20 does it say this is a separate judgment at a separate time. Israel could be, and in light of clear timeline passages like Revelation 20, is judged with the other nations and all men at the Great White Throne judgment. Since this does not happen before the millennium, there is no proof from the passage that unbelievers do not enter the millennium.

Now lets move on to Isaiah chapter 60:

Isaiah 60:8-9 & 10-14 & 18-21(NIV)
8 "Who are these that fly along like clouds, like doves to their nests?
9 Surely the islands look to me; in the lead are the ships of Tarshish, bringing your sons from afar, with their silver and gold, to the honor of the LORD your God, the Holy One of Israel, for he has endowed you with splendor...

10 "Foreigners will rebuild your walls, and their kings will serve you. Though in anger I struck you, in favor I will show you compassion. 11 Your gates will always stand open, they will never be shut, day or night, so that men may bring you the wealth of the nations- their kings led in triumphal procession. 12 For the nation or kingdom that will not serve you will perish; it will be utterly ruined.

13 "The glory of Lebanon will come to you, the pine, the fir and the cypress together, to adorn the place of my sanctuary; and I will glorify the place of my feet. 14 The sons of your oppressors will come bowing before you; all who despise you will bow down at your feet and will call you the City of the LORD , Zion of the Holy One of Israel...

18 No longer will violence be heard in your land, nor ruin or destruction within your borders, but you will call your walls Salvation and your gates Praise.
19 The sun will no more be your light by day, nor will the brightness of the moon shine on you, for the LORD will be your everlasting light, and your God will be your glory.
20 Your sun will never set again, and your moon will wane no more; the LORD will be your everlasting light, and your days of sorrow will end.
21 Then will all your people be righteous and they will possess the land forever. They are the shoot I have planted, the work of my hands, for the display of my splendor.

Dr. Hartog attempts to use verse 21's phrase "all your people be righteous" to say all those who initially enter the millennial kingdom will be righteous. Is verse 21 speaking of those who enter the millennial kingdom of Christ, or is it speaking of the final eternal state? I believe verses 18 through 20 prove beyond doubt that it is speaking of those who enter the eternal state.

There are many passages in the Old Testament that are speaking of the Millennium and then switch to speaking of the eternal state. It is a common error among Dispensationalists to take Old Testament passages speaking of the eternal state and apply them to the millennium. This is unfortunately what Dr. Hartog has done in this case.

The "switch" in this case starts around verse 18 of Isaiah chapter 60. Notice it speaks of no more violence and then says "The sun will no more be your light...for the LORD will be your everlasting light". It then says "your days of sorrow will end". Does this sound familiar? Lets look at a passage that sounds like this and puts this in perspective:

Revelation 21:1-4 & "1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.
2I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away...

22I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp. 24The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. 25On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. 26The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it. 27Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life. "

Yes ladies and gentlemen, Isaiah 60:18-21 is a parallel passage to Revelation 21. Isaiah 60:18-21 is clearly speaking of the eternal state and this cannot be used as proof that no unbelievers will enter the millennium.

This last passage that Dr. Hartog sites is found in Zechariah 14. He only gave us Zechariah 14:16 but I am going to show you the verses before and after it to put it in better context:

"12 This is the plague with which the LORD will strike all the nations that fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh will rot while they are still standing on their feet, their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongues will rot in their mouths. 13 On that day men will be stricken by the LORD with great panic. Each man will seize the hand of another, and they will attack each other. 14 Judah too will fight at Jerusalem. The wealth of all the surrounding nations will be collected-great quantities of gold and silver and clothing. 15 A similar plague will strike the horses and mules, the camels and donkeys, and all the animals in those camps.

16 Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD Almighty, and to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles. 17 If any of the peoples of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD Almighty, they will have no rain.

18 If the Egyptian people do not go up and take part, they will have no rain. The LORD will bring on them the plague he inflicts on the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles. 19 This will be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles."

Dr Hartog says of verse 16 "Every one that survives shall go up to Jerusalem annually to worship the King (Zechariah 14:16)". He implies that these are the survivors of some judgment that takes place before the beginning of the millennial reign. But is that what we see in this passage? Who are these survivors? Are they believers?

In verses 12-15 we see an image of the battle of Armageddon and what God does to the nations that come against Jerusalem. Immediately after this he says "the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem" will go up to "worship the King". There is no indication in this passage that these are survivors of a judgment that has taken place before the millennial reign. In fact the verses that follow give us a clue that these survivors are not believers.

Verses 17 says any people that do not come to worship will have no rain. This threat is repeated with the addition of plagues against the Egyptians and any other nation that does not come to worship the King. If all these survivors are believers why is there a need for such a threat? These are threats that victors make over their defeated subjects. These are not things you say to believers who are your faithful subjects.

I am actually surprised that Dr. Hartog even brought up this verse. It is one of the most damaging to his and other Dispensationalist arguments that their will be no surviving unbelievers who enter the millennium.

I have recently altered my position on the inhabitents of the millennium. I still do believe, based on a literal reading of Revelation 20, that the first resurection does take up and give glorified bodies to all believers up till the point Christ is physically revealed. This means those mortals who intially are left will be unbelievers. However some, and maybe many of the unbelievers who are left will believe on Christ, as he has been physically revealed in glory at this point.

These are the believers(or chosen ones) who have the offspring spoken of in passages like Isaiah 65. Those believers who have been a part of the first resurection though, will have the privilege of being priest of God and ruling with Christ in this millennial kingdom. Not all the mortals will become believers though and these are the ones whose descendents will rise up in one final rebellion at the end of the millennium.

Those who believe in the millennium, according the passages like Isaiah 65, while having longer life spans, still will die. But then they will be raised at the second resurection and will receive their glorified bodies at that point before entering the eternal state where death will be no more.

None of the passages Dr. Hartog sites up to this point prove a separate set of judgments happening before the Great White Throne judgment mentioned in Revelation chapter 20. These separate judgments are what he bases his theory on, that there will be no unbelievers entering the millennial kingdom. I see no where in Scripture where it is stated that there will be no surviving unbelievers who enter the millennium. In fact, I believe Zechariah 14 gives us ample proof that there will be unbelievers who enter the millennial kingdom of Christ, and in fact they will be the subjects of that Kingdom with Christ and all the saints ruling over them.

Now we will move on to the second article on this subject by Dr. Hartog. I want to start off with a paragraph in which he speaks of problems that we Posttribulationists have in our system:

A problem for Posttribulationists
Posttribulationists combine the rapture with the second coming of Christ. According to the posttribulational layout, the rapture will take place at the end of the tribulation. This means that all the believers will receive glorified bodies, and they will immediately come back to the earth together with the Lord for His second coming to the earth. This leaves no time for unbelievers to turn to Christ after a posttribulational rapture, and this would preclude the entrance into the kingdom of saved people with natural bodies. Since there would be no people with natural bodies entering the kingdom, there would be no people capable of procreation, and so there would be no possibility for unbelieving descendants to participate in the final rebellion.1

This presents a serious problem for Posttribulationists. Douglas Moo admits that he finds "this argument the most difficult to handle," and he confesses that "the argument presents a difficulty for the posttribulational view."2 One cannot prove Pretribulationism solely by pointing to the weaknesses of other systems, but such argumentation definitely has its merit.

Let me stop and point out some things. Posttribulational must be divided and understood in two separate groups. One would be the classic Posttribulationists who don't believe in a literal 7 year future tribulation to come. The future Posttribulationists, such as myself, see a literal future 7 year tribulation period the same way pretribulationists do.

I am not as familiar with the writings of Douglas Moo as I am with George Ladd. But let me make it clear that I came to my position before I ever heard of postrib writers such as George Ladd and Douglas Moo. I was a Dispensationalist from head to toe until I did my own in-depth study of prophecy. I spent months going over the passages, not to disprove Dispensational Theology, which I believed, but to prove it for myself.

I was amazed at the fact that there is not one passage in all the scripture that spoke of two separate events in the same verse. No passage separated the rapture of the saints from the glorious second coming of Christ. As I continued my study I could not get passed Matthew 24 in which it clearly states the elect will be gathered together after the Tribulation.

I could not shake Revelation 20's statement "This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection". When I read in Dispensational commentaries that this is not really the first resurrection but it is the first "type of resurrection" I could not accept this. I began my journey from that point into Posttribulationalism not knowing if anyone else out there thought as I did.

It was not long after that, when I found the writings of George Ladd. I realized then that the new position I held on eschatology was not just a valid one but one with many adherents. They were called Historic Premillennialists. It was also a great comfort for me to read Dennis Swanson's excellent article on Charles Spurgeon's eschatology. He argues convincingly that Charles Spurgeon held a view very similar to Historic Premillennialism. In the article he shows Charles Spurgeon's distaste for a prophecy system which divides Israel from the Church. He also states very clearly that he believes the Church will go through the Great Tribulation to come.

Even in my study of George Ladd I realized he left many questions unanswered. I wanted to answer those questions for myself and did. My studies and the timeline I found in the New Testament are now in my article A Historic Premillennial Timeline.

In the paragraph above, Dr. Hartog states that the populating of the millennium is one of the biggest difficulties for Posttribulationists to overcome. He even quotes Douglas Moo to admit this. I think the problem is that some Posttribulationists have allowed Pretribulationists to construct an obstacle that is not really there.

The obstacle they present is that since only saved persons will enter the millennium and how can they procreate if they all have received glorious bodies? Posttribulationists and Pretribulationists would agree that people in glorified bodies do not procreate. We also both agree that there is a final rebellion of mortals against the Kingdom of Christ and how could this be if there are no mortals to procreate?

I previously answered this supposed dilemma by pointing to Zechariah 14's phrase that there will be "survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem"(vs. 16). I also showed that no passage in all the Bible states only believers will enter the millennial reign. I showed that passages used by Dispensationalists to suggest this are in fact talking about the final eternal state.

So who will procreate in the millennium? Unbelievers who are left, some will believe on Christ during the millennium and some will not. Some of their descendents will lead one last final rebellion against the Kingdom of Christ and they will be destroyed.

Lets now move on to Dr. Hartog's next statement regarding the Sheep and Goats judgment of Matthew 25:

"Attempting to move the sheep and goat judgment
Sensing their quandary, posttribulationists have proposed a number of possible solutions. Gundry, Kimball, and Moo move the judgment of the sheep and goats from the beginning of the millennium to the end of the millennium.3 They do this in order to allow unbelieving Gentiles entrance into the kingdom with natural bodies. Walvoord ably argues against this posttribulational solution.4 First, he notes that Matthew 25:35-9 pictures the "brethren" (Jews) as hungry, sick, naked, and in prison. These descriptors could not possibly refer to Israel’s condition during the millennial kingdom since at that time the Gentiles will lavish Israel with the wealth of the nations (Isaiah 60:5-7, 11, 13-17). Second, Walvoord observes that Matthew 25:31 expressly states that the judgment of the sheep and goats will take place "when the Son of man shall come in his glory" (25:31). This obviously refers to the second coming of Christ to the earth at the beginning of the kingdom."

Once again as I stated previously there is no "quandary" for Posttribulationists in regard to the Sheep and Goats judgment. He says we "move the judgment of the sheep and goats from the beginning of the millennium". I could argue just as convincingly that Pretribulationalists have moved the Sheep and Goats judgment (which is really just another description of the Great White Throne judgment) to the beginning of the Millennium and separated it from the Great White Throne judgment. Why? Because they need mortal believers to enter the millennium in order for there to be another resurrection of believers. If a Dispensationalist can prove there is more than one resurrection of believers than they can dismiss Revelation 20's clear statement that this is "This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection".

Nowhere in Matthew 25 does it mention the "brethren" are only Jews as Dr. Hartog suggests. This must be read in by the Pretribulationist. Also I agree that their will be no sick or hungry brethren (believers) in the millennium. But that is not what Christ is talking about. He will be rewarding those who have had glorified bodies (all believers) for the entire millennium for the righteous things they did in their mortal bodies before the millennium.

I have previously answered Walvoord's theory that Matthew 25:31's phrase "when the Son of man shall come in his glory" - "obviously refers to the second coming of Christ to the earth at the beginning of the kingdom". It does not say in this verse that the judgment takes place at "the beginning of the kingdom".

As I previously pointed out, there are passages such as this one that at first glance we might interpret one way. But when we take it with the whole scripture, and with final Revelation from John as to when the judgment takes place, we must understand this as referring the that Great White Throne judgment John describes.

This interpretation is a valid one as I pointed out because there are messianic prophecies that speak of Christ's birth and his millennial reign in the same passage. We know now though that their will be a great deal of space between his physical birth and his reigning in the millennial kingdom.

The same thing applies here in Matthew 25. We can either accept Revelation 20 as a complete timeline from the Rapture to the eternal state, or we can do as the Dispensationalist does and insert new events into it. We can ignore the fact that it expressly shows only one resurrection of the saints or we can accept it. Posttribulationists such as myself accept it, while Dispensationalists must reject it.

I don't agree with Gundry that the 144,000 are unbelievers so their is no need for discussion of that. I do now agree with Moo that there is an additional time of repentance (but not restricted to Jews) after the rapture.

In conclusion, Dr. Hartog has failed in his two articles to prove separate judgments which take place before the millennium. Descriptions of judgment on Israel, as well as the other nations and Christians are all descriptions of the only judgment shown in Revelation 20 - the Great White Throne judgment.

There are no separate judgments to wipe out unbelievers before the millennium. Zechariah 14 conclusively proves there will in fact be unbelievers who survive and enter the millennium. Revelation 20:5-6 states "...This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years". All mortals who intially enter the millennium will be unbelievers. These will be those who see the glorious second coming of Christ and witness the rapture. After the rapture they will still have chance to believe, but they will not have the privaleges of premillennial believers to be priests of God and reign with Christ at this time. If those who still do not believe do not come to worship God during this time, they will have no rain and plagues will come upon them as Zechariah 14 clearly tells us. It is not hard to believe then that Satan will be able to fool these unbelievers into rebelling against God at the end of the millennium.